Posts by Doug Mason

26

Secondary fulfilment to prophecy?

by Doug Mason in

in its use of the prophecy contained in nebuchadnezzar's dream (daniel 4), the wts applies a "greater fulfilment" beyond its initial application.. while they complain about the wts's action, at the same time these people make their own secondary applications to prophecies, such as with micah 5:2. these people also find "greater" meaning to historical statements, such as at isaiah 9:6 and at isaiah 53.. such passages had their local meaning yet people are prepared to find their "greater application" which suits their ends, just as the wts does.

it is not an excuse to say that the nt writers indulged themselves in the practice.. i am not saying that i agree with the practice; i am simply seeking consistency and integrity.. doug.

Doug Mason

Mac48,

While we have very differing outcomes to our investigations, I genuinely wish you well and that your faith gives you peace and meaning to your life.

I do not care what any individual JW believes. As long as their belief causes no actual harm to themselves or to anyone else, the only thing is that a JW lives in accordance with their individual genuinely held beliefs.

My beef is with the Organisation and with its leaders, who are less than forthright with the people who put their lives in the hands of those who are prepared to deceive them.

Thus I use topics such as chronology and blood to show JWs what the leadership truly is.

My concerns are thus not doctrinal but

1. They rip families apart

2. People die unnecessarily due to the leaders' stance on the medical use of some blood products

3. Cognitive dissonance has such terrible mental impacts.

Doug

26

Secondary fulfilment to prophecy?

by Doug Mason in

in its use of the prophecy contained in nebuchadnezzar's dream (daniel 4), the wts applies a "greater fulfilment" beyond its initial application.. while they complain about the wts's action, at the same time these people make their own secondary applications to prophecies, such as with micah 5:2. these people also find "greater" meaning to historical statements, such as at isaiah 9:6 and at isaiah 53.. such passages had their local meaning yet people are prepared to find their "greater application" which suits their ends, just as the wts does.

it is not an excuse to say that the nt writers indulged themselves in the practice.. i am not saying that i agree with the practice; i am simply seeking consistency and integrity.. doug.

Doug Mason

https://www.etsjets.org/files/JETS-PDFs/44/44-2/44-2-PP237-252_JETS.pdf (accessed 9 September 2019)

The vindication of the saints is accompanied by the complete curtailing of the most characteristic activity of the dragon on earth: deceiving the nations. Yet Satan’s binding is for “a short time”, anticipating his release, and final rebellion and destruction after the millennium in 20:7–10.

The binding, release, and final judgment of Satan may simply reflect a traditional apocalyptic motif as found in Isa 24:21–22; 1 Enoch 10:4–6, 11–13; and Jude 6, which reflect the common themes of binding and imprisonment of demonic beings (Azazel in 1 Enoch 10:4) until a future time of judgment.

The parallels between Rev 20:1–10 and 1 Enoch 10:4–6 are particularly close: (1) an angel binds Azazel (10:4; Rev 20:1–2); (2) Azazel is imprisoned in darkness and sealed over for a period of time (10:4–5; Rev 20:3); (3) the binding lasts until the day of judgment when Azazel is thrown into the fire (10:6; Rev 20:3, 7–10); (4) the binding renders Azazel incapable of corrupting the people with false teaching (10:7–8; Rev 20:3). John has taken over and adapted a traditional apocalyptic theme of the binding of the demonic/Satan and has integrated it into his own eschatological scenario of the final battle (20:7–10) and the final vindication of the saints (20:4–6). Thus, the binding and subsequent judgment of Satan are also not meant to communicate chronological information, but the thematic idea of the judgment of Satan using a traditional apocalyptic motif. The binding and judgment of Satan in vv. 1–3, like the millennium of vv. 4–6, function as part of the complex of events that will transpire at the Parousia.

The inclusion of the one thousand year reign of the saints between the two parallel scenes of the final battle can be explained in three ways. First, at this point John seems to be following Dan 7:9–14. Daniel 7 envisions the destruction of the beast at the end of history and the transference of his authority to the Son of Man and the saints with him. The judgment of the beast and the saints’ enemies is a necessary prelude for the reign of the saints. Therefore, the destruction of the beast and all evil in Revelation “requires as its positive counterpart that judgment be given in favour of the martyrs, who must be vindicated and rewarded.”

Second, and related to this, the mention of the saints seated on thrones in 20:4–6 suggests not only reigning but judging (cf. Dan 7:22; Luke 22:30; 1 Cor 6:2). The saints carry out their judicial function by ruling over and defeating the enemies in 19:11–21; 20:7–11.

Finally, by placing the vision of the final vindication of the saints in 20:4–6 immediately prior to the account of the final eschatological battle in vv. 7–11, John emphasizes that the vindication and victory of the saints is irreversible and secure. Satan’s last-ditch effort to thwart the saints is no contest at all and ends up in inevitable failure (vv. 9–10). God’s word on the matter is final.

15

Old belief quietly discontinued

by neat blue dog in

one of jws oldest beliefs, going back to the bible students, was quietly turned to old light in the latest wt.

in questions from readers, it explains that when satan told eve 'you certainly will not die', he wasn't starting the doctrine of the immortal soul, but that rather came later, after the flood..

Doug Mason

peacefulpete,

I fully agree with you. And, as the snake correctly told them, if they ate of the tree, they would be like the gods, knowing everything -- both good and evil. So when this mythical pair was denied access to the tree, they lost access to the knowledge of everything. That is the reason they were kicked out.

The first sin (again mythical explanation) was the murder of Abel.

The idea of original Sin was invented centuries into the Christian Era when they wanted to justify the need for infant baptism.

Doug

26

Secondary fulfilment to prophecy?

by Doug Mason in

in its use of the prophecy contained in nebuchadnezzar's dream (daniel 4), the wts applies a "greater fulfilment" beyond its initial application.. while they complain about the wts's action, at the same time these people make their own secondary applications to prophecies, such as with micah 5:2. these people also find "greater" meaning to historical statements, such as at isaiah 9:6 and at isaiah 53.. such passages had their local meaning yet people are prepared to find their "greater application" which suits their ends, just as the wts does.

it is not an excuse to say that the nt writers indulged themselves in the practice.. i am not saying that i agree with the practice; i am simply seeking consistency and integrity.. doug.

Doug Mason

Mac48,

Resources I have accessed since consistently state that the source for the 1000 years of Revelation lies with 1 Enoch. They also make references to Daniel 7, but not one mentions Daniel 4 in that context. I also noted a very similar passage in the Apocalypse of Paul.

Why did Daniel write in two different languages?

Which Bible do you believe in?

Doug

29

New Armageddon date?

by neat blue dog in

looking at the most recent wt the study article focuses on the jubilees.

the made a separate box in the article to highlight the math behind jubilees, and i'm wondering if they're trying to get people thinking and stir up the pot without actually making a false prophecy.

for instance: jubilees happened every 7 times 7 years.

Doug Mason

They only need to provide hints and some will run with it. And when the frenzied expectations fail, the organisation will say it carries no blame.

In the meantime it's a good way to hang on to the gullible, just as with the "any time now" rally.

Doug

PS. Did your calculation take account of the fact that there was no zero year?

15

Old belief quietly discontinued

by neat blue dog in

one of jws oldest beliefs, going back to the bible students, was quietly turned to old light in the latest wt.

in questions from readers, it explains that when satan told eve 'you certainly will not die', he wasn't starting the doctrine of the immortal soul, but that rather came later, after the flood..

Doug Mason

There was no Satan in the Eden story. That idea was created even later than the time when the NT documents were written.

From Daniel 4 to 1914 CE?

by Doug Mason in

i never thought that ever again i would have to write about nebuchadnezzar's dream at chapter 4 of daniel.

but you never know what life throws up.. no doubt i can find several excuses for missing some relevant or vital piece of information and probably i need to make improvements -- so feel very free to let me know.. although i based my presentation on an article at the jw.org site, i was unable to locate its source in a magazine or in a book.

i will appreciate any help.. https://jwstudies.com/daniel_4_and_1914.pdf .

Doug Mason

I never thought that ever again I would have to write about Nebuchadnezzar's dream at chapter 4 of Daniel. But you never know what life throws up.

No doubt I can find several excuses for missing some relevant or vital piece of information and probably I need to make improvements -- so feel very free to let me know.

Although I based my presentation on an article at the JW.ORG site, I was unable to locate its source in a magazine or in a book. I will appreciate any help.

https://jwstudies.com/Daniel_4_and_1914.pdf

Doug

26

Secondary fulfilment to prophecy?

by Doug Mason in

in its use of the prophecy contained in nebuchadnezzar's dream (daniel 4), the wts applies a "greater fulfilment" beyond its initial application.. while they complain about the wts's action, at the same time these people make their own secondary applications to prophecies, such as with micah 5:2. these people also find "greater" meaning to historical statements, such as at isaiah 9:6 and at isaiah 53.. such passages had their local meaning yet people are prepared to find their "greater application" which suits their ends, just as the wts does.

it is not an excuse to say that the nt writers indulged themselves in the practice.. i am not saying that i agree with the practice; i am simply seeking consistency and integrity.. doug.

Doug Mason

Mac48,

My position on the Book of Daniel is that it was compiled in 164 BCE during a period of heightened speculative atmosphere initiated during the previous 3rd century, as witnessed through writings such as 1 Enoch, Jubilees, etc. and through actions such as by the communities of the Dead Sea.

That period created a spirit world with its hierarchy, extending to a spirit leader that personified evil. The name they gave to this leader included Beliar, Belial, Azazel, Mastema, and Satan. This latter individual must not be confused with the satan mentioned in the Hebrew Scriptures (Job, etc.).

Th situation confronting the writers of Daniel (in its present form) was the persecution by Antiochus Epiphanes, and they formulated the stories in such a way that they were giving messages of comfort to their people while not alerting their persecutors to the real messages they were giving.

So they purported to be writing stories about events taking place centuries earlier, which details their current tormentors would not be aware of. Thus chapters 2 , 3 and 4 told their followers that their tormentors, who thought their kingdom would last forever, would be brought down. They reapplied Nabonidus' apparent mental illness to Nebuchadnezzar.

They created time frames ("2300 evenings and mornings", "62 weeks, 7 weeks, and 1 week") that would terminate in their own time. They created saviours who would be fulfilled in their time. They spoke of their Kings of the south and of the north -- the Seleucids and the Ptolemies,

Does this seem like a political document, a political manifesto? Does this go to some way of explaining the reasons its parts were written in two languages?

These people were not aware of what another group would write centuries later. Completely unaware. And it would be difficult to demonstrate that the writers of Revelations sourced their thought from Daniel. I suspect that 1 Enoch and/or Jubilees were their source(s).

Doug

26

Secondary fulfilment to prophecy?

by Doug Mason in

in its use of the prophecy contained in nebuchadnezzar's dream (daniel 4), the wts applies a "greater fulfilment" beyond its initial application.. while they complain about the wts's action, at the same time these people make their own secondary applications to prophecies, such as with micah 5:2. these people also find "greater" meaning to historical statements, such as at isaiah 9:6 and at isaiah 53.. such passages had their local meaning yet people are prepared to find their "greater application" which suits their ends, just as the wts does.

it is not an excuse to say that the nt writers indulged themselves in the practice.. i am not saying that i agree with the practice; i am simply seeking consistency and integrity.. doug.

Doug Mason

alanv,

Yes, and this reapplication is prominent throughout the Gospels, notably Matthew, as well as by Paul.

Doug

26

Secondary fulfilment to prophecy?

by Doug Mason in

in its use of the prophecy contained in nebuchadnezzar's dream (daniel 4), the wts applies a "greater fulfilment" beyond its initial application.. while they complain about the wts's action, at the same time these people make their own secondary applications to prophecies, such as with micah 5:2. these people also find "greater" meaning to historical statements, such as at isaiah 9:6 and at isaiah 53.. such passages had their local meaning yet people are prepared to find their "greater application" which suits their ends, just as the wts does.

it is not an excuse to say that the nt writers indulged themselves in the practice.. i am not saying that i agree with the practice; i am simply seeking consistency and integrity.. doug.

Doug Mason

I must say that I am deeply impressed by everybody's contribution. Thank you.

Mac48, as for your thoughts, although I have my reservations at this stage, I would like to offer you some suggestions that might remove some mental roadblocks.

The book of Daniel as we have it comes from the second century BCE. The preceding centuries witnessed the rise of apocalypticism, so inform yourself about the contemporary times (1 Enoch, Jubilees, Dead Sea community, in particular). That period was also responsible for the creation of an evil spirit world, including their leader, known as Belial / Beliar / Mastema / Azazel / Satan, etc. The LXX took over the Greek diabolos / Devil. Later, the NT writers created demons. This period also invented a War inside Heaven(!).

Regarding the numbers, do not be distracted by modern mathematics, particularly with its focus on positional notation. Rather, work through their ideas of Gematria, Kabbalah, and so on ("the number of his name", etc.), in other words, the spiritual meanings given to numbers.

There is a consensus that when the 2nd century CE writers compiled the Book of Daniel for their own immediate needs, that they did not get the history precisely correct in the way that we would understand history. The Hebrews and the Jews created stories in order to give meaning to their own situation. It is thus thought that they reapplied Nabonidus' ten year absence from Babylon in Tema, as it suited their objective regarding Antiochus. Taken in sequence, chapters 2, 3 and 4 of Daniel show that the mighty, who think their kingdom will last forever, will all be humbled.

As for the Johannine community that wrote, Revelation, that is another separate exercise which has to look at their own situation and approaches.

My thoughts on the dream, which I hope to start another Thread with: https://jwstudies.com/Daniel_4_and_1914.pdf

Doug